Wes Moore & Jake Day
The following is a transcript from YIMBY Democrats for America’s interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore and Secretary Jake Day on Episode 1 of Radio Abundance, which premiered on April 8th, 2025.
Steve Boyle, Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America:
Hello! Governor Wes Moore, Secretary Jake Day: thanks so much for being with us today to kick off the Radio Abundance Podcast and launch YIMBY Democrats for America. We're thrilled to be with you. This is a conversation today all about Democrats who build. We can't build a more progressive future if we don't build, and we can't ultimately defeat Trump without presenting a better alternative for American greatness.
We're really excited about some of the work you're doing in Maryland and excited to hear a little bit about it. So, I'm wondering, just for folks at home, if you could take a quick second, say hello, maybe introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your colleague here, and then I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about what you're working on right now, because I know this is a hot topic for you and quite pressing at the moment.
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
Absolutely. Hey, everybody! My name is Governor Wes Moore. I'm the governor of Maryland, the 63rd governor of the state, and, and I'm here with my friend and colleague and partner in the work, our Secretary of Housing and Community Development, Jake Day, who's also a major in the army, who's also a former mayor – who I was excited about when I said, how can I find the most aggressive person to really zero us in and lead us on housing?
There's nothing like getting a former mayor to be able to get in and lean in, but also someone who really has an extraordinary vision and is bringing this to life.
And we're excited, because we came in saying that we wanted Maryland to be remarkably aggressive when it came to growth.
Economic growth and affordability have got to be the number one things that we can drill in and focus on. And we knew that you cannot get that without focusing on housing.
Honestly, for us, it's a really basic supply and demand conversation.You know, you had 30% of young Marylanders saying that they were considering leaving the state for one simple reason: housing costs. And a big reason why you have housing cost issues is because we have such a shortage of units.
And so, we've really been very systematic, where, last year, we put together the most aggressive package in recent history, by any Maryland governor, to address the issue of housing. That was how you focus on things like density bonuses and transit-oriented development, saying that, yes, there are places where we should not build, but the places where we should build, we need to build – and we need to incentivize the building.
We need to both work with our locals and also incentivize developers to be able to address that. And also saying, where are there places where we know that there's ample amount of jobs, places where we know that employment is hot, where there should be a place and an ability for people to be able to develop more and grow more.
Because it's both going to be about, ‘how can you create more protections and more options for renters keeping the price down?,’ but also, we're very bullish on the idea of, we want to create more homeowners. We want to create a better ownership society. Because when people actually have assets, you have things you can tap into. You have things you can pass on. And it also gives additional options for us to be able to really continue to fuel an employment market, so that we don't have our STEM graduates going to our neighbors because they cannot afford to find a place inside of the state of Maryland.
So, we've been very aggressive about being able to increase inventory and decrease housing prices, and we believe that's a strategy to really create mechanisms for economic growth.
Steve Boyle, Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America:
We have an audience that's pretty in the weeds on this, so I'm curious if you can talk us through just how you're attempting to tackle that, both legislatively and in your relationships and negotiations with local governments and local neighborhoods?
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
Yeah, absolutely. I can take the first part, Mr. Secretary, and then I'll hand it off to you as well.
You know, one thing that we knew we had to do, we really had to create and work with and incentivize housings of housing of all forms, and of all types, because this was not going to be just looking at one specific geographic area, and it was not looking at one specific type of housing. Because different types of housing are going to work for different areas.
And so, we really came up with an all-of-the-above approach – and, frankly, an all-hands-on-deck approach – in the way that we're working with our federal partners, we're, we're working with our local partners, where they're also working with the private sector to be able to incentivize development and incentivize growth.
So, we passed a series of different legislation in the past year. One is so called the Housing Expansion and Affordability Act, which really incentivizes development in areas where building is desirable and the limits of the local jurisdiction deny the permits, so that that they cannot be able to do that, especially when it comes to unreasonably restricted projects or [projects] funded by LIHTC and other affordable housing financing programs.
We passed legislation that focused on unlocking new tools to strengthen our communities and address the housing crisis. That includes the creation of the Maryland Community Investment Corporation, which has already hit the ground running, making sure that we can provide the capital that's necessarily required.
We passed legislation that supports renters and we’ve increased protection for renters because there's two things that we know about housing: Housing is the number one creator of wealth, and it's also the number one driver of poverty, when you look at housing and security. So, we felt that there was a need to be able to address both sides of the barbell, keeping people housed and creating a better pathway for home ownership.
And then also, it's just in providing more capital and more incentives for people to be able to go and develop in areas, knowing that’s some of the biggest challenges that individuals face – not even the construction companies, to go and build, but also for people to get access to homes in the first place.
And so, providing additional capital and support for first-time home buyers and providing more pathways for them to be able to get into housing was an important priority for us, too.
Mr. Secretary, I want to pause and see if there’s something that I missed as well.
Jake Day, Maryland Secretary of Housing and Community Development:
Governor, thank you. I think you all can see why I've got the best job in America.I work for a governor who not only gets it, but who empowers us to be inventive and creative.
You know, in the last few years, we have been equipped with sufficient resources from a budgetary standpoint. And that's key. I mean, we seed growth. We seed economic development.
One of the tools I'll mention is something called Reinvest Baltimore, which is a transformative, $50-million-a-year initiative paired with a couple of other tools that is designed to address vacancy and vacant housing in Baltimore City.
We've entered a collaborative relationship with the city, with the community, with philanthropy and with business, to try to address and raise significant resources to address vacancy in Baltimore City. And I'm really excited about that initiative and the results it's showing.
On top of that, we've got a great subordinate debt program. We've got great placemaking, redevelopment tools that I think are some of the most flexible and well-funded in the country. So all of that plays a critical role.
But on the legislative front, you know, the governor, by leading on housing through a three bill package last year, and through the general assembly passing those bills and the governor signing them into law, I think demonstrated that there is no third rail in the housing space for Governor Moore. He is willing to – and sir, I don't mean to talk about you, you know, while you're here, but, look, you're doing it – he's willing to touch these things and transform the landscape and the rhetorical landscape, which I think is so important. Because it's so easy for a legislature that gets confronted with big challenges every year to say, ‘you know what, we don't wanna touch that.’
And the people of Maryland expect us to touch this. Because it touches their lives. Housing is central to their experience. And so this is so important.
And it's also why I'm so excited that the governor has championed a bill this year called the Housing for Jobs Act, which is designed to take a next step – and I think a really critical and huge step forward – saying that bureaucratic regulatory processes that don't serve the crisis that we are in – the crisis that Maryland families are facing – are something that cannot be sacrosanct. We have to address those.
We have to address those regulatory obstacles. It is the thing that is most in our control at the state and local level. We might not be able to influence the price of lumber or the interest rates – the global interest rate environment – but what we can do is influence regulatory obstacles.
Nia Johnson, Cofounder of YIMBY Democrats for America:
On that note, how do you see state-level policy initiatives like the Housing for Jobs Act fitting into a broader strategy for Democrats to reconnect with voters? Do you think that demonstrating effective governance on housing and economic opportunity at the state level offers a path to rebuilding the party's national appeal?
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
I'll take that first. You know, it's a great question, Nia, and the answer is yes.
Because it's all about: are you actually addressing the things that are impacting their lives right now?
You know, one of the top issues that people talk about when it comes to affordability and why everything feels so expensive – let's get at the root of one of the main reasons why things feel so unaffordable right now: When you have people who are spending 40%, 50%, 60% of their monthly take home simply on housing, simply on, on having a roof over their head, it's easy to see why people feel that things are completely unattainable right now.
And the challenge is, when you have such a massive shortage of housing, by definition, what's gonna happen is it's gonna drive the cost up. And so the same thing that was costing X is going to now cost X times in a year's time. And that's when people start feeling that measurement of squeeze. And I think the most important thing that we can do is to show people that we are listening and to show people that we are moving.
And one of the biggest challenges we've had – and Secretary Day pointed this out – is when you have this arbitrary red tape, when you have situations where people can just simply block, when you have situations where you have a local housing commissioner who can have more say over what happens than a governor or a mayor or somebody else, that becomes really difficult and really challenging to be able to make things happen.
We believe that you can show real results by actually choosing to work together on things. And when you can work together on these things, you're actually able to address one of the most crucial issues that people are facing right now, which is housing.
And I think that the ability to do that – the ability to show that we can focus on housing affordability, that we can focus on housing stability – that's gonna show people that the party that figures that out is the party that's fighting for the people.
Armand Domalewski, Cofounder of YIMBY Democrats for America:
Amen!
Steve M. Boyle, Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America:
We're definitely going to come back to the question of the Democratic party generally and how this factors into that and the future vision and standing up to Trump. I also want to see if I can set up Armand for a question.
Secretary Day, you said something very dangerous: that there were no third rails for Governor Moore. So, we're gonna touch a few here.
There's a few different areas here. Nuclear power is the ultimate clean energy. It can bring down costs, but it’s also incredibly controversial.
There's also the question of ‘deregulation’ within the Democratic party. How do we talk about that? How do we talk about new construction and the threats of gentrification? And, of course, how do we deal with local neighborhoods, NIMYIsm, and the political compromises that are necessary?
I know that Armand has some very interesting experiences from his work in San Francisco and California in terms of how local municipalities can interpret ambiguities in the law, as well as questions about some particular developments around infrastructure.
Armand Domalewski, Cofounder of YIMBY Democrats for America:
Yeah! Governor Moore and Secretary Day, I watched the testimony that Governor Moore gave for the Housing and Jobs Act. And, one thing that really struck me is that it seems to parallel what California did with what's called the RHNA Regional Housing Needs Assessment Process. I was very involved in that, trying to get San Francisco – their jurisdiction – to comply with those rules.
One section that caught my eye is this Unreasonable Restrictions Clause and the Standstill Provision. One thing we found in California is that it's very difficult in practice to enforce this. Because, when you have a zillion jurisdictions around the state, they pass laws all the time that could be edited out directly related to housing.
So I just wanted to ask, regarding the Unreasonable Restrictions Clause and the Standstill Provision, how are you thinking about making sure that that's enforced? Because you have a prior value of action for developers, but developers are often reluctant to sue because oftheir relationships with the city or the county. Cities pass laws all the time, and actually making sure that they're not affecting housing or zoning or so on consistently can be challenging.
Jake Day, Maryland Secretary of Housing and Community Development:
Yeah, if I can. So, look: the very first introduction of the Unreasonable Restrictions Clause for us was actually in the Housing Expansion Affordability Act last year. So we've used that same language, and we've spent a lot of time with jurisdictions talking about this. We've spent time in the counties – the communities – that I think are, are the most concerned about what we're proposing. Whether it's high-growth jurisdictions like Frederick County or low-growth jurisdictions or places where there's actually some population loss like Baltimore County, we're having these conversations with them about what is an unreasonable restriction. It's really about impact.
You'll see with Housing for Jobs, one of the things that we're trying to achieve is performance. So it's about time. It's less about an actual denial. And it's less about a provision that we think is going to be interpreted as subjective.
It's, rather, the performance of those objective-seeming regulations and seemingly-reasonable regulations – their performance as a delay tactic, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to ultimately result in a de-facto denial.
I think that we're more likely to confront de-facto denials through extended process – years and years added to projects, millions and millions of dollars added to projects – that's where we're really trying to change the game.
I don't think many jurisdictions want to have the fight of actually denying – particularly if this becomes law, if Housing for Jobs becomes law. So, I think we really want to end up in – they want to end up in – a place where they are in conversation with developers at the table. They don't want to be sued. A developer doesn't want to sue. And you end up working through these things in a much faster fashion.
As a planning commissioner, I can tell you it would've been really helpful, if staff were motivated, to find agreement quickly and produce agreements that we could endorse – findings of fact that we could support, recommendations that we could support – rather than being put in a position where politics begins to influence, and neighbors are yelling, and we feel like we have to come back to topics again and again and again, and inch our way through projects, rather than try to comprehensively address problems in one meeting, in two meetings.
It's exactly why the Housing Expansion Affordability Act reduced the total number of public hearings that could be had on projects. Not to reduce public input, but to say: let's compress the timelines. ‘Let's not use these processes to drag things out.’ I think that's really where the greatest effect will be on reducing delay and reducing process and trying to refine it into quick decisions on critical projects.
Armand Domalewski, Cofounder of YIMBY Democrats for America:
We've been focused really on housing, but we really want to talk about Abundance broadly. We've seen you, Governor Moore, because of your YIMBYism and other advocacy, as a really good champion for this idea that Democratic party needs to be a party of Abundance.
But, one thing that gave some Abundance advocates pause is when the Governor criticized the Maryland Piedmont Reliability Project that was intended to support economic growth and clean energy. A lot of us felt like this was a little bit contradictory to the message of abundance. In particular, the idea of, “oh, we need more consulting, more outreach” – stuff like that.
We know that you're a great abundance guy, Governor, so we're just wondering if you could explain that a little to us?
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
Yeah. Well, one is, let folks know that, that I'm committed to exploring all available energy options. And, by the way, that includes nuclear energy. And that means that we have to be able to meet our environmental and our clean energy goals and drive down prices.
What I don't believe in is that you somehow have to choose between those things, where you actually can say, “yes, we can” –making sure we're hitting clean energy goals, we're hitting environmental goals, and we're driving down prices – and those do not have to be mutually exclusive. That, when we're talking about having sustainable and reliable infrastructure, that can focus on both things like the reliability of the grid, that we’re making sure we're controlling cost, and that we’re making sure that we're doing it in concert with our locals. I actually don't think that those are challenge ideas.
And I do think it's important to understand that, when we're watching energy prices that are skyrocketing – when we are watching ambitious goals, but you do not have a grid that can support it – that there has to be a way of being able to move fast and be assertive.
I also believe that there's a way of going about a process, and being able to work with and inform locals and be transparent about a process does not mean allowing NIMBYism to win.
And that does not mean you're not gonna get anything done. But, what it does mean is: it's the best way of being able to avoid organ rejection. When you're going and moving in this way, that is gonna be smart. But, at the same time, know that you need to have the people in the communities – and the leaders there – who also are serving as cheerleaders of that work as well.
And so, I believe deeply that we need to be able to increase our energy options. I believe deeply that we need to be able to drive the cost down. I believe deeply that we need to make sure that we have a grid that is prepared to support all these energy assets to include multiple clean energy options. And, when I talk about clean energy options, it's not just wind and solar, it is also nuclear energy as well.
At the same time, this can be done where the local community feels informed and engaged – not being done in a way where you can end up with a situation where you have a battle that is taking place between those who want to move and those who are trying to just stop everything. I feel like there is a third way of being able to get this work done.
Jake Day, Maryland Secretary of Housing and Community Development:
Can I just add that, I think this is what it comes down to: the governor's point just now on why optionality and why choice and expansion of sources is so critical. On energy, we have to do everything we can and tie everything back to – as Democrats, we have to tie everything back to – that household budget. Because people are suffering right now. They're going to suffer more as more chaos bleeds out of Washington.
And, in that chaotic environment, I think ultimately – and it may take months; it may take a year or two years – but, as that chaos continues to bleed out of Washington, people are going to feel it at home. They're going to feel it in their utility bills. They're going to feel it in their medical bills. They're going to feel it in their insurance bills.
And where we can win is by saying, “we're gonna help you not feel it when you're paying rent, and when you're not seeing that increase in your rent and your mortgage payment.
And, if we can start to have an effect on supply, we know we can have an effect on affordability. I think it's one of the few clear policy areas where we can demonstrate a relatively quick return on our investment, on our political capital investment.And the same may be true in a slightly slower way with utility bills.
But, all of those things are hurting people right now. And housing offers an opportunity, I think, to, to gain some ground with voters and with our constituents.
Nia Johnson, Cofounder of YIMBY Democrats for America:
I think one thing that I've noticed is, I think we're in between culture shifts on the left and in general. We're moving from this 20th century slow growth, skeptical of commerce, skeptical of abundance versus, I think, a different line of thinking that, slowly but surely, we're moving into. I think like a lot of things we're talking about require that full paradigm shift away from that old midcentury way of looking at things.
So, what do you think is the way to kind of communicate that abundance is good? That increasing supply is good? That things that used to be dirty words aren't actually dirty words, really differentiating these ideas from the conservative version that everyone obviously rightfully fears?
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
You know, I think that Secretary Day actually was hitting the nail on the head earlier.
It's like, what are the things that can be done that can, that can impact people's lives quickly, to show that we're moving with a sense of speed and urgency and intentionality that I think their situation merits?
And I think part of it goes down to: the thing we need to be really careful of is somehow acting like we're protecting ‘what was.’
Because ‘what was’ was not working for people.
And I think that's the message that people wanted to send, that this is not about saying, ‘we will stand by and defend the status quo at all costs.’
Because, for example, I can tell you: I come from a background where we literally watched the status quo continue to put barriers in front of my family.
There’s a reason why I had to convince many members of my family to vote for me when I ran for governor. And it's not that we're not cool: ot's that I had to convince many members of my family to vote.
Because we have seen this repeatedly: how systems that were in place that were intended to help and support did anything but.
And so, I think that what we have to show is, there's a difference between disruption – which is what we all believe in – and destruction, which is what we're seeing right now.
Disruption and destruction are two completely different things.
And I think that we have got to show why doing things like focusing on increasing inventory, – which is gonna drive down costs – why doing things like addressing prescription drug costs, why doing things like asking, how can we address the issue of inflation, so people's basic standards of living and the basic cost to buy materials for your family – that you can actually address it in a real way.
That's what people are looking for.
They're looking for results.
And that's why I do believe that we have a unique chance – especially as governing partners, especially as folks in the executive branch – we have a chance to show, “what does an alternative actually look like?”
To make hard decisions.
To build more.
To build a level of abundance and affordability in people's lives.
And to show them what the alternative looks like between believing in disruption and actually creating destruction in people's lives, where their basic needs and their basic frustrations are still not being met.
Jake Day, Maryland Secretary of Housing and Community Development:
And, Nia, just real quick, I think that's the right narrative, and I would add – the only thing I would add to what the governor said is this: that more pie available for more people is part of how we help people achieve the outcomes that they haven't been able to in America and haven't been able to in Maryland.
And also, I think we are a more trustworthy partner to make sure that that pie, as it grows in size, is available to those who haven't had an opportunity to get their fair slice.
You know, the governor is leading on place-based work in child poverty.
We are working on a justice lens for all of our place-based interventions.
This is what we do as Democrats, and we're trustworthy partners in that sense.
And now, simultaneously, we're saying, “but we gotta grow the economy.”
And, in order to have the resources to change and affect lives positively, we’ve got to have more resources available.
So, I think it's two pieces, one that maybe we're shifting and taking back from our opponents – our historical opponents – and another, which is core to our DNA, and merging those two into a new approach for Democrats today.
Steve M. Boyle, Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America:
Thanks! I want to sneak in one final question, and then we'll get you on out of here. Because I do think this one's an important one for us to leave on, which is: you've answered both quite eloquently on what Democratic politicians can be doing, in terms of both rhetoric and action, to counter Trump – and for all of us.
For ordinary folks out there, who are desperate to do something to stand up to this regime – whether it's organizers and activists or just Democrats or Independents or ordinary folks – what can we be doing right now to build alternatives and stand up to some of the chaos and freefall that's happening at the national level?
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
I can take that first.
I think it's important for everyone to understand their own individual power, inside this moment where we cannot get to a situation where everyone's looking around saying, “why isn't this person stepping up? Or why isn't this person doing this? Or what is this person doing?” without understanding the role that each and every one of us individually have.
And I do think — you know, for both Secretary Day and I, we're military guys.
And one thing I think that makes the military so special and so unique is that every MOS or specialization – everyone has their job, right?
So, you can be a Combat Arms guy, but Combat Arms is not going to be effective if you don't have good intel folks, and if you don't have good combat engineers, and if you don't have cooks, and if you don't have JAG and your lawyers.
Everyone has their job.
And this is actually the moment where I think that we as a society have to understand that, yes, our Attorneys General are going to have a very important job.
I think our attorney general now, I think just announced his 19th lawsuit against the federal government.
He has a very unique job right now to make sure that many of these actions that we are seeing – you know, we have to remember, too: all the actions that we've seen, particularly the executive actions, they fall into either ineffective, performative or illegal.
So, the Attorney General has a very unique job to be able to help address the illegal.
We know that for the people on Capitol Hill, they have a unique role.
For governors, for cabinet secretaries, for people in state government – we have a very unique role and a very unique responsibility.
And I'm thankful that we have a chance to actually respond in this moment and use our states as examples of what the alternative can actually be and look like.
But, I think individual citizens can never forget their role as well.
The people who are running organizations and the people who are in the private sector – the people who are community servants and the ones who are working with communities and in communities – part of your job is to make sure that you are mobilizing right now, that everyone has a unique chance to mobilize.
And that doesn't mean that everyone is going to do the same thing.
But, what it does mean is that everyone must have a job.
And everyone must understand their role in terms of making sure they're both protecting democracy, but also really preserving our values and pushing our values forward.
Jake Day, Maryland Secretary of Housing and Community Development:
I would add to that only this: I spent the last 24 hours – and the governor and I didn't talk about answering this question, so this wasn't orchestrated – I spent the last 24 hours talking to our members of the federal delegation, our representatives and senators, talking to them about housing.
The thing that resonates and the thing that they wanted to know is the stories of how individuals and families and neighborhoods and cities and towns in Maryland were being affected.
I think everybody needs to tell those stories.
The reality of these illegal or ineffective or poorly thought-through actions is that they have real consequences on real families, real households, and on businesses.
And we gotta tell those stories over and over again.
And those that will most resonate will rise to the top, and we'll be able to repeat them.
But, there are thousands – there are millions – of stories right now of how people are being affected, and there are going to be millions more in the months and years to come – as the effects of a reduced federal workforce and agencies that are stripped to the bone – and that delays projects, kills projects, and changes what's available for families.
All that's going to be out there.
We have to start telling those stories, loudly, not talking about, necessarily, the policy or the program: the story, the effect.
Steve M. Boyle, Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America:
Governor Moore, Secretary Day, thank you so much for being with us today. Thanks for both your work and your time. We hugely appreciate it!
Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland:
Thank you so much. And congratulations again! This is great.